Israel's attacks on Hamas (and thus Gaza) are not about revenge, but prevention. Hamas has made it abundantly clear that destroying Israel and killing Jews is more important than their own lives, and especially the lives of other people.
It is a basic responsibility of a nation to defend its citizens, and that is what Israel is doing. If there is some other way to prevent future attacks on Israel, nobody has mentioned it - and that is what is needed for peace. It is outrageous that Hamas is able to expend the lives of others for their ideology, but that's where we are.
No, it's a war. Many ways to prove that. But the easiest is that the population is growing. No population undergoing a genocide has even maintained its size.
Message to my Palestinian brethren, if leaders are going to pursue Justice or Peace they must first be just and peaceful to their own kin. Exposing the vulnerable to unnecessary wars is not just and will not end in peace
I had been thinking about this recently. "No justice - no peace" is such a weird thing to chant for people who call themselves "pro-Palestinians". While Israel might care more about the lives of his citizens, the number of dead Palestinians is, as far as I remember, an order higher then that of dead Israelis. Palestine really isn't in a position to make any demands, so I simply don't understand why protesters speak as if it is solely Israel that is interested in peace.
That society has been tormented for decades too. This poll is a reminder that violence radicalises both sides. Yet the types of Hamas and IJ still hope to out-violence Israelis into submission. That logic never worked and never will
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
— Frederick Douglass
"That society has been tormented for decades too".
You confuse "tormented" with "tormenting". There is no comparison between the "torment" that Israelis have experienced vs the torment that Palestinians have experienced. It is bad faith to claim they are comparable.
"the types of Hamas and IJ still hope to out-violence Israelis into submission. That logic never worked and never will"
With very few exceptions, it is the ONLY thing that does work. "Out-violence" is the manner by which Israel came into existence. Hamas didn't come to power till 2007, nearly 60 years after the extraordinary violence of the Nakba. And the Nakba only came about because in the 1930s, Zionists working with The British (and 100,000 of their soldiers) killed 10% of the male Palestinian population, and killed, exiled or incarcerated every Palestinian leader.
If Hamas does not deserve to exist because they killed 1200 people on Oct 7, does Israel not deserve to exist because they killed 3500 people on September 16, 1982 (just to pick one, of many such dates)?
Palestinians have tried to resist in many different ways, including non-violently. The 1st Intifada was mostly non-violent: Israel crushed it with violence. The 2019 March of Return was also non-violent: Israel crushed it too with violence.
Even BDS, an inherently non-violent form of protest has been made illegal in both Israel, the US, and other parts of the world.
So, if non-violence IS the solution, please, tell me, what non-violent approach will reach a society currently committing genocide? What are the magical words, when they believe they have a god-given right, that they are god's chosen people? What rational argument can exceed the irrationality?
Tell me, because maybe the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto could have uttered them to avoid the ovens.
I’m old enough to remember the Second Intifada which was Hamas response to the Palestinian leadership shaking Israeli hands for peace. Hamas has been targeting markets and buses so much that Israelis would think shall I put my kids into different school buses so at least I get one back
Your revisionism may work on someone incapable of remembering that era. Rewind all the way back to the 1920s you will find that both societies suffered so please do not trivialise the suffering of one side to make a point
Your knowledge of the Nakba seems exclusively one sided and so I will not respond to it I’ll let an Israeli redress that often repeated historical distortion
Look up what Constantine Zureiq meant when he introduced the term and read what lead up to those events and why they turned out the way they did
The second intifada started in 2000, more than 50 years after the Nakba, and after nearly a decade of failed promises of Oslo and Camp David.
It was NOT in response to "Palestinian leadership shaking Israeli hands for Peace", but rather because Ariel Sharon went to Temple Mount and said "the Temple Mount is in our hands and will remain in our hands".
Someone is practicing revisionism, but it is not me.
"Both societies suffered" is a false equivalence. Prior to Oct 7, the ratio of Israeli casualties to Palestinian casualties was 1:20. Again, that is PRIOR to Oct 7. They are in no way comparable.
You won't respond to the Nakba because my knowledge is so "one sided"? How incredibly convenient for you. Well, YOUR knowledge of Oct 7 is one sided too, so I will disregard that as a legitimate argument too.
Those displaced or willingly left their homes by the Nakba were both Arabs and Jews. You chose to phrase it as if it was exclusively a Palestinian Arab problem is either you being uninformed or deliberate. All Jews were expelled from the West Bank by the Arab armies that started the war to exterminate the Jewish state. I’m talking about Jews who didn’t even live on contested land. Despite all that the Palestinians and Israelis threw all that past behind them and shook hands for peace
Then Hamas started blowing people up
Do you understand?
Nakba was coined to decry the Arab’s failure in the war, failure to deny the Jews a nation state
Nobody, and I repeat NOBODY "willingly left their home".
The 1947 UN vote on partition was accepted by the Zionists, but rejected by Palestinians.
Now, if I wanted to buy your car, but you refused to sell me your car, do I have the right to kill you and take your car? No. Both parties must agree to a deal. The Palestinians' rejection of the partition means that the partition should not have happened.
But partition DID happen.
And Israel CHOSE it to have happened. So under the terms of that horrific deal, a deal that Palestinians rejected, that Israel accepted, those Jews had to leave.
It's true, that some of those Jews didn't leave - which makes perfect sense because IT WAS THEIR HOME - and yes, they were forced to leave by Jordanian forces, and yes, there were horrors and massacres by the Jordanian forces, but, again, there is no comparison to the Palestinians.
Those Jews who were displaced in the partition were not placed in refugee camps for decades - they resettled, comfortably inside Israel.
I'm not diminishing what happened to those displaced Jews, but the numbers displaced and killed were tiny compared to the displaced and killed Palestinians ... and AGAIN ... this is because of the vile partition plan that should never have been agreed to, but which Israel did agree to.
Next ...
You say "Hamas started blowing people up".
Hamas didn't come to power till 2007. If you wish to ignore everything between 1948 and 2007, and then post-hoc justify that by "Hamas started blowing people up", then you are not acting or arguing in good faith.
I am not too focus d on peace or justice, John at focused on stopping the genocidal apartheid state of Israel from. Starving 2 million innocent women and children to death
Israel's attacks on Hamas (and thus Gaza) are not about revenge, but prevention. Hamas has made it abundantly clear that destroying Israel and killing Jews is more important than their own lives, and especially the lives of other people.
It is a basic responsibility of a nation to defend its citizens, and that is what Israel is doing. If there is some other way to prevent future attacks on Israel, nobody has mentioned it - and that is what is needed for peace. It is outrageous that Hamas is able to expend the lives of others for their ideology, but that's where we are.
Ad hominem because you have no response. Israel's and Jews' security is sacrosanct.
Then you get nonstop war, which you keep losing (to a bunch of "weak" Jews... hahahaha).
No, it's a war. Many ways to prove that. But the easiest is that the population is growing. No population undergoing a genocide has even maintained its size.
Message to my Palestinian brethren, if leaders are going to pursue Justice or Peace they must first be just and peaceful to their own kin. Exposing the vulnerable to unnecessary wars is not just and will not end in peace
I had been thinking about this recently. "No justice - no peace" is such a weird thing to chant for people who call themselves "pro-Palestinians". While Israel might care more about the lives of his citizens, the number of dead Palestinians is, as far as I remember, an order higher then that of dead Israelis. Palestine really isn't in a position to make any demands, so I simply don't understand why protesters speak as if it is solely Israel that is interested in peace.
Here’s what the Israeli people ACTUALLY want (it’s neither justice nor peace):
https://parrhizzia1.substack.com/p/new-poll-israel-is-a-sick-society?r=3hh94p
That society has been tormented for decades too. This poll is a reminder that violence radicalises both sides. Yet the types of Hamas and IJ still hope to out-violence Israelis into submission. That logic never worked and never will
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."
— Frederick Douglass
"That society has been tormented for decades too".
You confuse "tormented" with "tormenting". There is no comparison between the "torment" that Israelis have experienced vs the torment that Palestinians have experienced. It is bad faith to claim they are comparable.
"the types of Hamas and IJ still hope to out-violence Israelis into submission. That logic never worked and never will"
With very few exceptions, it is the ONLY thing that does work. "Out-violence" is the manner by which Israel came into existence. Hamas didn't come to power till 2007, nearly 60 years after the extraordinary violence of the Nakba. And the Nakba only came about because in the 1930s, Zionists working with The British (and 100,000 of their soldiers) killed 10% of the male Palestinian population, and killed, exiled or incarcerated every Palestinian leader.
If Hamas does not deserve to exist because they killed 1200 people on Oct 7, does Israel not deserve to exist because they killed 3500 people on September 16, 1982 (just to pick one, of many such dates)?
Palestinians have tried to resist in many different ways, including non-violently. The 1st Intifada was mostly non-violent: Israel crushed it with violence. The 2019 March of Return was also non-violent: Israel crushed it too with violence.
Even BDS, an inherently non-violent form of protest has been made illegal in both Israel, the US, and other parts of the world.
So, if non-violence IS the solution, please, tell me, what non-violent approach will reach a society currently committing genocide? What are the magical words, when they believe they have a god-given right, that they are god's chosen people? What rational argument can exceed the irrationality?
Tell me, because maybe the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto could have uttered them to avoid the ovens.
I’m old enough to remember the Second Intifada which was Hamas response to the Palestinian leadership shaking Israeli hands for peace. Hamas has been targeting markets and buses so much that Israelis would think shall I put my kids into different school buses so at least I get one back
Your revisionism may work on someone incapable of remembering that era. Rewind all the way back to the 1920s you will find that both societies suffered so please do not trivialise the suffering of one side to make a point
Your knowledge of the Nakba seems exclusively one sided and so I will not respond to it I’ll let an Israeli redress that often repeated historical distortion
Look up what Constantine Zureiq meant when he introduced the term and read what lead up to those events and why they turned out the way they did
The second intifada started in 2000, more than 50 years after the Nakba, and after nearly a decade of failed promises of Oslo and Camp David.
It was NOT in response to "Palestinian leadership shaking Israeli hands for Peace", but rather because Ariel Sharon went to Temple Mount and said "the Temple Mount is in our hands and will remain in our hands".
Someone is practicing revisionism, but it is not me.
"Both societies suffered" is a false equivalence. Prior to Oct 7, the ratio of Israeli casualties to Palestinian casualties was 1:20. Again, that is PRIOR to Oct 7. They are in no way comparable.
You won't respond to the Nakba because my knowledge is so "one sided"? How incredibly convenient for you. Well, YOUR knowledge of Oct 7 is one sided too, so I will disregard that as a legitimate argument too.
Deal?
Those displaced or willingly left their homes by the Nakba were both Arabs and Jews. You chose to phrase it as if it was exclusively a Palestinian Arab problem is either you being uninformed or deliberate. All Jews were expelled from the West Bank by the Arab armies that started the war to exterminate the Jewish state. I’m talking about Jews who didn’t even live on contested land. Despite all that the Palestinians and Israelis threw all that past behind them and shook hands for peace
Then Hamas started blowing people up
Do you understand?
Nakba was coined to decry the Arab’s failure in the war, failure to deny the Jews a nation state
Nobody, and I repeat NOBODY "willingly left their home".
The 1947 UN vote on partition was accepted by the Zionists, but rejected by Palestinians.
Now, if I wanted to buy your car, but you refused to sell me your car, do I have the right to kill you and take your car? No. Both parties must agree to a deal. The Palestinians' rejection of the partition means that the partition should not have happened.
But partition DID happen.
And Israel CHOSE it to have happened. So under the terms of that horrific deal, a deal that Palestinians rejected, that Israel accepted, those Jews had to leave.
It's true, that some of those Jews didn't leave - which makes perfect sense because IT WAS THEIR HOME - and yes, they were forced to leave by Jordanian forces, and yes, there were horrors and massacres by the Jordanian forces, but, again, there is no comparison to the Palestinians.
Those Jews who were displaced in the partition were not placed in refugee camps for decades - they resettled, comfortably inside Israel.
I'm not diminishing what happened to those displaced Jews, but the numbers displaced and killed were tiny compared to the displaced and killed Palestinians ... and AGAIN ... this is because of the vile partition plan that should never have been agreed to, but which Israel did agree to.
Next ...
You say "Hamas started blowing people up".
Hamas didn't come to power till 2007. If you wish to ignore everything between 1948 and 2007, and then post-hoc justify that by "Hamas started blowing people up", then you are not acting or arguing in good faith.
Justice.
I am not too focus d on peace or justice, John at focused on stopping the genocidal apartheid state of Israel from. Starving 2 million innocent women and children to death
How about Israel just stops being a genocidal apartheid state?